Today I’m joined by Chaplain Betty Clark, a hospital chaplain, community leader, and lifelong caregiver, and Dr. Jessica Zitter, a critical and palliative care physician, author of Extreme Measures, and filmmaker. Their friendship sits at the heart of the new documentary The Chaplain and the Doctor, born from years of working side by side at Oakland’s Highland Hospital. Together, they’ve built trust across lines of race, faith, and hierarchy, exploring what it really means to care for patients and for each other. In our conversation, Betty and Jessica reflect on the art of chaplaincy, the courage it takes to face bias and racism in medicine, the healing power of storytelling, and the idea of the “wounded healer.” What emerges is a moving portrait of friendship, honesty, and grace, an invitation to stay, as Betty put it, “blessed in the mess.”Warmly,Emily and The NocturnistsFavorite moments from this week’s episode“Look with your ears, listen with your eyes.”“I tell volunteer chaplains to look with your ears and listen with your eyes. You’re looking for things that may not mean what they seem. You might see a rosary hanging on the bed and think someone’s Catholic, but maybe it’s just decoration. Observation is sacred—it’s how we really hear people.” A Thunderbolt Realization“There are moments in life when you realize you’ve been thinking about something wrong. That’s what happened when I called Betty. I realized how much armor doctors wear—how scared we are, how defensive. Once you see that, it’s hard to unsee it. That’s when I opened up to her, and to friendship.” Language and Respect“There’s certain language you don’t use with African Americans. Don’t say ‘we’re going to wean you off this medicine’—that’s baby talk. Say, ‘we’ll lower your dose as your pain improves.’ Language matters. It’s about respect.”Bias at the Bedside“I’ve been that doctor at 3 a.m., thinking: oh, the patient in bed five with sickle cell, asking for more Dilaudid. Working with Betty made me realize—this is bias. It’s not about being a bad person. It’s about how the tired human brain works. But we have to see it to change it.” Blessed in the Mess“People ask how I’m doing, an

Dear Friends,What does it mean to write about illness in fragments? How can children’s questions reveal a kind of collective philosophy? On our 70th episode of Conversations, I speak with the writer Sarah Manguso, whose work moves effortlessly between memoir, aphorism, and essay.I first encountered Sarah’s writing in Two Kinds of Decay, her account of living with CIDP, a rare neurological disease. The book, composed of crystalline fragments, became a formative text for me as a young doctor-in-training. In this conversation, Sarah reflects on that early work, shares how her perspective has changed with time, and introduces her latest book Questions Without Answers, a collaboration with illustrator Liana Fink.Below you’ll find a few excerpts from our talk—on illness, writing, and the surprising wisdom of children’s voices.Warmly,Emily and The NocturnistsFavorite moments from this week’s episodeFrench Fries and Apheresis“You’re sitting there having the procedure, eating the french fries, and then you watch as the blood products actually get more greasy and fatty and filled with fat particles. They get cloudy and opaque. That always stayed with me.”Writing the First Memoir“As a younger person, writing before the memoir boom, I was asked more than once, what is a young person like you doing writing her memoirs? You’ve barely lived. And I said, it’s just a memoir of this one experience. I was only remembering one thing. In retrospect, I look at the book and think, this is just blissfully uncomplicated and clear, because that’s how my life felt at the time.”Children as Philosophy Machines“These little creatures are art machines. They’re philosophy machines. Almost supernatural, because they dwell in both worlds. My son’s mind was as interesting as the most interesting adults I knew, but with so little life experience that his questions were just bananas. When he asked,

Today, we're releasing a special bonus episode featuring Emily and our "uncertainty correspondent" Alexa Miller, in conversation with the ABIM Foundation. Together, they reflect on the key insights from creating the Uncertainty in Medicine series....

In the series finale, we explore a different type of uncertainty—the uncertainty that arises around the healthcare system itself. This episode follows Ed Stratton, a stage IV cancer patient who beat his cancer, only to be denied a life-saving liver...

What does it mean to live well in a world where nothing is certain — not in medicine, not in life? In this episode, we follow a high school teacher who asks his students to examine “the good life” through philosophy, Buddhism, and existential...

Today, we explore the paradox of mortality: something both certain and utterly unknowable. Through a haunting parable from Ursula K. Le Guin and stories from doctors and loved ones, we hear what happens when people try to plan for death—or avoid it....

Today, we step inside the studio of visual artist Leila Simon Hayes, whose bold, shape-driven designs are born from a process rooted in imperfection, intuition, and trust. Through her story, we explore how Leila’s creative practice helped her...

Today, we explore the hidden layers of communication in medicine—what gets said, what doesn’t, and how uncertainty lives not just in the clinical data, but in the space between people. From a telemedicine encounter with a stubbornly independent...

Today, we step into the dance studio with improvisational dance artist Chris Aiken, whose work lives at the intersection of uncertainty, movement, and presence. With insights that resonate far beyond the dance studio, Chris explores how attention,...

This week, we explore how time and uncertainty are intertwined in the practice of medicine. A toxicologist faces a split-second decision in the ER that could mean life or death for a young patient. A woman with chronic ankle pain spends years...

When a 7.6 magnitude earthquake leveled entire villages in Pakistan, retired U.S. Navy Admiral Mike LeFever was thrust into the heart of the disaster with no playbook and a simple directive: provide humanitarian aid and strengthen U.S.-Pakistan...

What happens when doctors have to make life-or-death decisions in an evidence-free zone — and patients are left to navigate the unknown? In episode 5 of “Uncertainty in Medicine", we bring you three gripping, real-life stories: a neurosurgeon...

What does uncertainty in medicine have to do with Chernobyl? According to patient safety officer Dr. Ron Wyatt, more than we might think. In the fourth episode of our "Uncertainty in Medicine" series, he draws a chilling connection between one of...

In episode 3 of the "Uncertainty in Medicine" series, patient Dana undergoes a routine knee replacement and expects a straightforward recovery. Instead, she’s plunged into a baffling and relentless illness—one that defies diagnosis and leaves her...

On this episode of Conversations, Emily sits down with the creative team behind —a gripping new medical drama on HBO Max that’s making waves in the healthcare world and beyond. Joining her are showrunner R. Scott Gemmill (ER, NCIS: LA),...

Step inside Alexa Miller’s classroom, where paintings become portals and doctors learn to see like patients. In this episode, Alexa leads a powerful exercise called the “image circle,” where clinicians reflect on their own experiences of medical...

In the premiere of the "Uncertainty in Medicine" series, The Nocturnists explore medicine’s uneasy relationship with not knowing. From the clean resolutions of medical dramas to the structured rituals of case conferences, the culture of...

Our Uncertainty in Medicine series launches next week, and to set the stage, we’re sharing one of our favorite episodes from the archives - a heartfelt conversation with New York Times columnist Ross Douthat about his journey through the healthcare...

Medicine is full of uncertainty—from ambiguous diagnoses to unpredictable outcomes and the complex emotions of not knowing. Uncertainty in Medicine is a new documentary podcast series, created in collaboration with Alexa Miller of , that examines...

Dr. Allan Detsky, a Canadian physician, health economist, and Broadway producer, examines the contrasts between Canadian and American healthcare. He then delves into his passion for musical theater, recounting his unexpected journey into Broadway...