In this conversation, I sit down with Stephen Roach on the Makers and Mystics podcast to explore why our stories feel exhausted — and what that reveals about our cultural moment. We talk about the end of the post–World War II narrative, the collapse of the hero (and even the anti-hero), and how storytelling has drifted. We also discuss fairy tales, monsters, AI, and the future of art.Let me know what you think in the comments and come join us at the Breath and the Clay conference, a creative arts gathering in Winston Salem, NC March 20-22, 2026: http://www.thebreathandtheclay.com/YouTube version of this episode: https://youtu.be/Xbr6XQlspGQ------------------------Another opportunity to come together and meet is the Symbolic World Summit 2026! Speakers include Fr. Josiah Trenham, Mary Harrington, Dn. Seraphim Rohlin, myself, and others.Date: May 14-16Place: Broadview Heights, OHBuy your tickets now and get $50 off with the early bird sale. Don't miss out: https://symbolicworldsummit.com/Hope to see you there.🎧 Listen to and review The Symbolic World podcast:-Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0gI8bUwPtT3gkduHqNh6M5-Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-symbolic-world/id1386867488 🔓 Become a patron to support us and unlock exclusive monthly symbolism content: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau Timestamps:00:00 - Coming up01:21 - Intro music01:47 - Introduction03:08 - Narrative exhaustion04:38 - End of the WW2 narrative08:40 - Fairy tales11:09 - Jonathan's retelling13:17 - Art and ideology17:41 - Complexity in religious art21:32 - Trust in the audience24:33 - Participation in art28:27 - Distorted retellings32:30 - Resistance of tyranny35:28 - Identity and form37:16 - Limitation and contemporary art41:34 - AI art44:11 - Human connection45:30 - Making spaceOur website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/